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What of it? Neither homosexuality or turnips need a mention just for an author not speaking of it as much as heterosexuality or apples. Alexandria talk , 6 September UTC. The essay by Jeff Riggenbach at misses.

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However it does not make a case that Heinlein was a libertarian, had libertarian beliefs, nor does it make the case that Heinlein intended the book to illustrate or espouse such beliefs. In fact, the article says just the opposite - " He found social and political ideas — ideas about the different ways human beings might figure out to live together peaceably in large groups — endlessly fascinating.

He liked to fool around with such ideas, speculate about how they might work out in practice. Libertarian ideas weren't the only ones he fooled around with and speculated about in his fiction. And since the essay makes absolutely no mention of any other work by Heinlein, it certainly cannot be used in support of a sentence that includes the clause " A strong current of libertarianism runs through his work ". Heinlein's writing do show a consistent theme of the primacy of individual conscience over obedience to authority, but whether this is properly characterized as libertarianism is not clear.

Dlabtot talk , 7 July UTC. The Riggenbach essay, which has generated some buzz within the community of liberarians intersected with science fiction readers, is not entirely what it appears to be. That is, Riggenback's conclusions are somewhat more "sectarian" than they announce themselves to be. The political thought in Starship Troopers is thoroughly unlibertarian. From what I can tell, Heinlein's political views both personally and in his work evolved over time. While "Moon" might be a stop in the same political neighborhood as libertarianism, it appears to have been a brief stop on a road both from a source and to a destination that is in no way related.

You might use the term "philosophical anarchist" or "autarchist" about me, but "libertarian" is easier to define and fits well enough. But I'm glad you didn't use the term "liberal" which used to mean much the same thing and with which I once tagged myself. But today 'liberal' means to me a person who wants to pass laws and use coercion to force other people to live in his notion of utopia -- the world 'liberal' no longer seems to have any connection with its root 'free' -- it always means 'Pass another law!

Someone included Heinlein on category: American socialists I cannot see any evidence to include him there. Heinlein, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress. Here is one interesting observation on Heinlein, "From the socialism he embraced in the late s to the Libertarianism and conservative Republicanism he embraced in the late s and 70s was a big shift, one which offended those who agreed with the free love socialism in some of his novels.

Suddenly, Heinlein was a conservative old fart: his female characters were not believable, and of course his seemingly pro-conservative works were "preachy". Does this need to be in the article? Jrcrin talk , 23 August UTC. As to whether it needs to be in the article, I would say yes, for the reason that any labeling of Heinlein as simply "conservative" without qualification in his later works is a serious misreading of the texts.

There is more explicit radical socialism albeit of the Wellsian, turn-of-the-twentieth kind in the last five or six novels than in any other of his works except, possibly, For us, the Living, which is a special case. Establishing his early political activity as socialist democrat, at a time when the radical wing of the democratic party was confessedly socialist, helps provide a foundation for critical reading of the last texts.

Heinlein wrote a remarkable number of books in which themes of incest and underage sex were present. Far from being a secret, it has generated major discussion and controversy over the decades, and is dealt with in part at the Heinlein Society website.

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While few nowadays would raise eyebrows over his group sex and group marriage themes - except to think that they'd be more difficult then he thought - the subject of incest and pedophilia are still taboo, and with what most of us would feel to be for good reasons. I feel, as did some before me, that such a major controversy is worthy of a mention, in a neutral fashion, of course. Alexandria talk , 19 August UTC. Alexandria talk , 27 August UTC.

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At the request of Lithistman, rather than me correct some of the problems in that section, I will put my corrections and additions here first, so that everyone can have a chance to suggest any more needed changes in style, grammar, length, etc. For Heinlein, personal liberation included sexual liberation,[citation needed] and free love was a major subject of his writing starting from the For Us, The Living. During his early period, Heinlein's writing for younger readers needed to take account of both editorial perceptions of sexuality in his novels, and potential perceptions amongst the buying public; as critic William H.

Patterson has put it, his dilemma was "to sort out what was really objectionable from what was only excessive over-sensitivity to imaginary librarians".

In later books, Heinlein dealt with incest and the sexual nature of children. A scene in Glory Road has a mother and her daughters offer their sexual favors to the protagonist—the more of them he accepts, by their cultural standards, the more he honors them—but, bound by his own Earthly inhibitions, he does them the dishonor of refusing their offer. In Time Enough for Love, Lazarus Long uses genetic arguments to initially dissuade a brother and sister he has adopted from sexual experimentation with each other, but he later arranges for them to be married, having discovered that they in an extremely rare but scientifically possible circumstance are not brother and sister on a genetic level; he also consummates his strong sexual attraction to his own mother, whom he goes back in time to see again.

In some of Heinlein's books, To Sail Beyond the Sunset, for instance, sexual urges between daughters and fathers are exemplified and briefly discussed on several occasions. After failing to dissuade them from the relationship, she forcibly returns the two to their father, and never mentions them again. Gary Westfahl points out that "Heinlein is a problematic case for feminists; on the one hand, his works often feature strong female characters and vigorous statements that women are equal to or even superior to men; but these characters and statements often reflect hopelessly stereotypical attitudes about typical female attributes.

It is disconcerting, for example, that in Expanded Universe Heinlein calls for a society where all lawyers and politicians are women, essentially on the grounds that they possess a mysterious feminine practicality that men cannot duplicate. As you can see, it has some flaws. While titled "Sexual liberation", it skips out about several diverse topics. It starts with mentioning his advocacy of free love, and an explanation of how this was difficult in his early works. It then jumps from sexual liberation to sexual taboos - incest and the "sexual nature of children".

After that, it shifts to a final paragraph in which it speaks of Heinlein's views on gender roles, arguably a part of a "sexual liberation" topic, but different than the "free love" theme introduced at the start. Please note that the middle section, arguably the most controversial, is entirely without citations.

It also makes an error, as it was not simply in Heinlein's "later books" that he introduced such topics, he had advocated a romantic relationship between a 30 year old and an 11 year old as early as I have proposed to take the large middle paragraph out of "Sexual liberation" and make it it's own topic called "Sexual taboos". That topic would be about Heinlein's views on those things. I chose "taboos" as it is softer sounding than "incest" or "child sex", and covers both of those concepts. In books written as early as , Heinlein dealt with incest and the sexual nature of children.

Authors such as L. Sprague DeCamp and Damon Knight have commented on this matter of Heinlein portraying incest and pedophilia in positive lights, and their views, as well as those who maintain The Heinlein Society website, are not favorable to it. Now, originally I had proposed a longer section dealing with this, where I listed out several of the books with the specifics described generally for each. Due to concerns of length, this one is relatively bare bones.

It is in fact shorter than the original treatment. It introduces the topic. It lists the books involved. It speaks very broadly of the range of what he is speaking of within those books.

Talk:Robert A. Heinlein

I have the citation available, it links to "The Heinlein Society", but more direct citations are available to be added. Alexandria talk , 21 August UTC. Retitle the section as "Sexual issues" or something similar. Rework the existing text as necessary. Cite as necessary. Simpler, cleaner, and less onerous. Lithistman talk , 21 August UTC. It's too bad this conversation broke down into bickering. This seems a pretty important element in his writing, I noticed it immediately upon reading Time for the Stars and Door Into Summer. I agree that the section needs to be rewritten into clearer language but a lot of these 'edits' start to look like attempts to shut down discussion of certain uncomfortable issues in Heinlein's writing.

I've noticed the same issue with edits regarding race, his previous involvement in socialism, etc. Rgelling talk , 24 July UTC. Only in America would socialism be lumped in with incest and racism Here is a link to my initial reversion. Removing it improved the article.

Lithistman talk , 25 August UTC. Lithistman saw that an article had been improved with a link showing a reference to a claim that had previously been unreferenced.


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However, he noted that the word "wrote" had been used instead of "written", and he felt that the writing was "bad" - no details or insight into how. After discussion here, in which he was not polite, assumed no good faith, kept changing his reasons for the blanking, and accused of "original research", I agreed to all his proposed changes. He then agreed with my agreement, and it was implemented. From that, it should have been over, but having rested, he's now back to stir it up again, this time with the bold claim that he's not had a chance yet to see if what I corrected it to was what he agreed on.