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The truth is that Princeton is the only place I applied.

Can you imagine doing that today? What chutzpah that is. Amazing program. ALLEN: Did you apply for that because you were interested in the Navy or were you looking for different kinds of scholarships? But I filled out the form when they got it for me and got this NROTC scholarship, which, if your brother did it, you know that not only does it pay your way through college, but it gives you summer jobs every summer that you are in college. So I was off on one cruise or another for all three summers while I was in college. So I guess when you were in college, the Korean War was over, so you missed that.

Eisenhower landed troops in Lebanon in , and I was on a summer cruise that summer and I was on a destroyer, and we were — the cruise went up the St. Went to Montreal on a destroyer.

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But at the particular time this Lebanon thing broke, the ship was in New York and we were all on liberty, and the word got out that everybody was to return to the ship because we were being mobilized and we were going to go to Lebanon. Well, these were a bunch of college boys. We thought we were non-combatants. The whole thing evaporated. As it turned out, I spent three years at sea in the Navy after four years of being a midshipman. I never heard a shot fired in anger. It was just a, it was kind of a spit-and-polish Navy doing a lot of maneuvers but not engaged with anybody. I thought I was going to Princeton and then I would return to Ohio.

I had no idea to do what. But I never did go back to Ohio except for weddings and funerals and so forth. I just stayed on the east coast after that and have been here ever since.

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It was an interdisciplinary program involving history, politics, economics, sociology, at least those four disciplines. I kind of thought I might be, but it was the way to prepare yourself if you had law school in mind. I now say that I majored in Committees, because the method of the Woodrow Wilson School was — what set it apart from the rest of the academic curriculum — was that students in their junior and senior years would be divided each semester into study groups and the study groups would take on some public issue and study it and issue a report.

Not a hypothetical one? So it was literally learning to work by committees.


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And you did that once in the fall, once in the spring for each of two years. And when you got to be a senior then you got to be chair of this committee. It was quite interesting. I think it was sort of laid on top of the courses. You still took a history course and a politics course and an economics course and a physics course and whatever else. The other courses were lectures. At Princeton, they had something called preceptorials, which are discussion groups. But this methodology, this committee methodology, was overlaid on top of all that in the Woodrow Wilson School.

It was interesting, and I think in retrospect, quite useful. Although thinking about college education and what you really get out of it, I think I probably spent too much of my college career studying something called Naval Science, which was one class every semester, which would be guns or navigation or seamanship or something like that. And how to work by committees. When did you get interested in the idea of the law as a possible career? Edward Bennett Williams came to Princeton to speak. He was at that time representing, I think, Jimmy Hoffa.

Hoffa, of course, was a notorious union leader who was always in criminal trouble, and Williams, being the brilliant lawyer he was, was smart enough not only to defend him in court but to make something of a public relations campaign about it. He went around to colleges, including Princeton, and spoke to students about not only the constitutional right to be represented by counsel, but about the whole system of justice and how necessary it was that there be good defense lawyers pushing back against the prosecution, and how the credibility and the sustainability of the American justice system depended directly on the quality, not only of the prosecution but also of the defense.

I was hooked on the idea of the law, and the rule of law as the cement that held society together, and I set my sights on law school right then and there. It may indeed have been before I even applied to the Woodrow Wilson School. It was fairly early on? And another thing that happened fairly early on, and it in some way informed this whole thing — and I was involved in this decision, by the way — happened when I was a freshman at Princeton.

Alger Hiss was invited to come and speak at the Princeton campus. This was a national happening. It put Princeton squarely in the national spotlight.

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Hiss had just been let out of prison, and the notion that he would be given a platform to speak anywhere, let alone at Princeton, was outrageous to some people. The Princeton alumni went ballistic and tried to put pressure on the president to un-invite Hiss, because Hiss had been invited by a student debating society that I belonged to called the American Whig Cliosophic Society.

The faculty and administration of the University, to its everlasting credit, did not interfere and decided that free speech on campus was a critical virtue that was going to be maintained. Hiss did come to speak, and I was there to hear him. I remember both of those as being an important milestones for me.

There was a famous course at Princeton called Constitutional Interpretation taught by a very eminent scholar by the name of Alpheus Mason. Indeed, Mason was my senior thesis advisor at Princeton. I wrote my senior thesis on the Sam Sheppard murder trial in Ohio and on the issue of free speech versus fair trial. Sheppard was a famous case. His trial was a circus.

He was found guilty. Years later F. Lee Bailey filed a habeas corpus petition and got him a retrial, and in the retrial Sheppard was acquitted. So the Sheppard case was my senior thesis, and Mason was my advisor. So I guess there was more law than I thought at Princeton. My father was a banker, my mother was a psychiatric social worker. My aunt was married to a Presbyterian minister. One of my uncles was a chief of police in Flint, Michigan, and another was a real estate appraiser.

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So no lawyers. I graduated cum laude at Princeton, but frankly I think that was the result of grade inflation more than it was academic excellence on my part. I mean I got very much involved in extracurricular activities.

I was chairman of the humor magazine which was mostly what I did during my last two years. I was a little bit involved with student government. I had a good time at Princeton. I know when I sent my own kids off to school, I begged them to consider how important an opportunity they had.