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• What is this cult and are they any different from ordinary Christians?
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I would hope yours does too. First of all, it is insulting to me that you leap to the conclusion that I don't have ordinary human feelings for animals, when I maintain that God had a good reason to kill them.

I don't believe that animals are merely property, and I do believe that they have some moral status, but that doesn't mean there can't be good reasons to kill them. Are you by any chance a vegetarian? Because if not, your criticism is especially odd. Can we please assume that I am a normal human being, that babies being killed is also disturbing to me, but that nevertheless as a rational being I understand that in principle it can sometimes occur that certain bad things are necessary in order to prevent worse things from happening?

And perhaps you can also accept that, as a religious person, who believes in a being who transcends human limitations, whom I believe is perfectly good and wise, and who swears he has non-cruel motivations, that this is not the same as me personally liking the idea of killing women and children, and having no empathy for their sufferings? Actually I did answer your question, when I said: "Killing innocents without sufficiently good reason would indicate that a being is not perfectly good.

But perhaps we should distinguish between two questions. Are you asking "What would constitute perfect goodness in God? It is not particularly surprising that a good but omniscient being should sometimes act in a way that does not appear to be good to us. You might be surprised at how often scientists refuse to question their fundamental theories on the basis of various challenges to them. The majority of time, theories which are originally well-supported like general relativity end up triumphing over experimental challenges which at first sight seem to contradict them.

This, of course, raises the question of whether the original belief that God is perfectly good has any positive evidential support. But I said quite explicitly that my belief that God is good comes from other sources, which are not currently under discussion. I agree with you that the Canaanite genocide is prima facie evidence against God's justice and mercy, but I don't think it's irrational for me to decide my beliefs on the basis of all the evidence, which includes positive evidence of God's character elsewhere.

The question is whether the positive evidence for his perfect goodness exceeds the negative.

Nevertheless, I don't think it's very useful to broaden this conversation by you citing more and more examples of Old Testament passages e. If we are to make any progress in this conversation, we need to keep things focused. Perhaps on the concept of authority? Your statement that the legitimacy of political authority comes from democratic elections is clearly false.

Prior to the 18th century, very few government systems were democratically elected though many had the support of the bulk of the people. Your view would imply that before that time, there was no such thing as a just trial.

This is absurd. As for abuse of power, I agree that Kim Jung Un does it in spades, but I fail to see how that should make a difference on those rare occassions when his judicial system acts to punish actual wrongdoers. Does living under an oppressive government make it acceptable to loot your neighbors? If not, then it is legitimate for the oppressive government to punish you for being a thief.

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I agree with you that elections are a good system for reducing government abuse, but that does not imply that all monarchies are illegitimate by nature, just that they produce good outcomes less frequently. The Christian answer to your question is that all political authority on earth is ultimately delegated from God, who possesses authority over us because he created us, loves us, and knows us perfectly. In other words he is not even remotely like Kim Jung Un.

Supposing hypothetically that you knew such a being existed if necessary, suppose that the Old Testament passages in question didn't really happen, and postulate whatever is the minimum amount of hypothetical evidence that would make you confident of his existence , would you agree that he would have legitimate authority over you? And do you also agree that there are at least some things which such a being could legitimately do, which would be presumptuous for a being with lesser power and wisdom to do?

PS I agree with St.

Dennis' remarks about why trying to prove that the Canaanites practiced child sacrifice is a red-herring:. But I suppose God doesn't generally want to do so when it would override the will of the person in question.

What is this cult and are they any different from ordinary Christians?

Pharoah hardened his own heart Ex. The word translated as "harden" also means to "strengthen". God was merely giving Pharoah the psychological strength to do what Pharoah himself wanted to do. I'm also sorry if you feel insulted over the issues of animals. I, of course do not know you and so can only respond to what you put in your posts.

What is in your post does seem to show a lack of concern for the animals that are killed and tortured at gods command and by god in the bible. Your response was:. Presumably God ordered the destruction of the animals for the same reason as the gold and other property: to prevent the Israelites from thinking that the purpose of the genocide was to enrich themselves, and to emphasize the severity of the judgement.

Perhaps I have overlooked something, could you can point it out to me? To answer your question, yes I am vegetarian. But the killing of the animals in the bible seems to go far beyond killing animals for food. They are killed and not eaten and they are not just killed but also tortured. At no point in your post do I see any empathy for this. I hope you understand my issue is with what you post, I know nothing of you as person.

If you are the nicest person in the world and spend all your time working for wounded animals, I will still have the same issue with your post. I hope you will also see that the validity of my arguments do not depend on whether or not I'm a vegetarian. Moreover, god could have made the animals temporarily immobile, he could have given the Israelites a burning pain if they tried to touch the animals, he could have made them invisble, all of this would have given them the same lesson but with less violence.

Yet god chose the way of violence and suffering. You respond: "Killing innocents without sufficiently good reason would indicate that a being is not perfectly good. Of course its possible that god has some good reason for his apparent evil acts. But its also possible he has an evil reasons for his apparently good acts. Surely we have to assess those agents based on the evidence we see not on a hypothetical reasons that no one has been shown.

If I want someone to love and I appear to do evil acts, shouldn't I should explain myself to that person? If I do not then it seems perfectly reasonable for that person to withdraw their affections. So far I have seen no good explanation in your posts about why god can not only allow so much suffering for animals but actually command it. Why does he use so much violence when peaceful methods could be used? I have no problem with your belief in god coming from other sources, what I find hard to understand is why someone trained in scientific method, would still not want to test your otherwise derived beliefs against the available observational evidence.

Surely no matter how reasonable a theory may seem we must always test it against the evidence wherever we can? I would not [be] surprised to find one observation not over turning an a compelling piece of theory. But observation after observation, most certainly should. And that is what we see in the bible, time and time agin, if the stories are true, we see gods being needlessly violent.

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With regard to authority, I asked what legitimises authority? Your response was god delegating power but this argument would imply that any government that has not been delegated by god has no authority. So a just trial done by a government not delegated by god is not just? How do you know if they are delegated by god or not? What if they could build a mind reading machine? They would then know me perfectly, does that mean they can enslave me?

As we have seen the evidence that the Canaanites committed child sacrifice is not as compelling as many Christian apologists imply.